Sackoon vs. Sanitee vs. Night Owl vs. Chronocerous

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Post by tbaker2500 » Sat Aug 09, 2008 9:58 pm

delfedd wrote:Whoa.... how'd sackoon pull into first!
Well, maybe his immediate family had something to do with it.

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Post by tbaker2500 » Sun Aug 10, 2008 5:35 am

So I noticed that Night Owl took a BIG jump and is now in a steady lead. (Looks like some folks are learning how to game the voting! (not hard))

So how exactly would Night Owl win? I've been trying to figure that out, here's my analysis.

Vs. Chronocerous: Night Owl could sweep in behind him and claw through the flesh, definitely. But, Chrono can jump around in time for a while. So Chrono could simply foresee the attack, and judge it to not be there anymore. It would be a tough fight for both.

Vs. Sanitee: I think Sanitee wins this one, unless Night Owl was able to get a sneak attack in.

Vs. Sackoon: I don't see how even razor sharp talons could cut through metal without taking a really long time. The only useful tool I see that Night Owl has in this battle is reflecting shots. So Sackoon would have to stop firing at Night Owl. 1 on 1, this would equate to something of a draw. And don't forget that Tanuki's have excellent night vision, being nocturnal.

I see Sackoon getting bored and leaving the battlefield long before and real damage happens between these two.
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Post by delfedd » Sun Aug 10, 2008 5:40 am

Perhaps Night Owl is aggressively defensive, reflecting barrages directed at sanitee or chronocerous.

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Post by tbaker2500 » Sun Aug 10, 2008 5:47 am

delfedd wrote:Perhaps Night Owl is aggressively defensive, reflecting barrages directed at sanitee or chronocerous.
I think he would have to be. Stealth and patience could be very strong traits early in a fight. But by the time the numbers thin out, he needs a good kill strategy to win.
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standings

Post by StalinSays » Mon Aug 11, 2008 9:09 pm

Night Owl has re-opened a healthy lead, up by almost ten on Sackoon, with three times that advantage on Sanitee, who despite his forum discussion presence remains in a distant fourth place (Hornaztee says hi). Chronocerous is in a vote-netting doldrums, hanging in third place from day two onward.

As for tbaker2500's plotting out of how a Night Owl win in voting would play in the context of the imagined battle, I'd suggest less fighting is more fighting. Remaining unseen is the key tenant of a round 2 victory plan for Night Owl - stick to the less populated reaches of the field, camouflaged in darkness and retaining strength. Wait for the Sackoon to fall (most likely to a puppet Chronocerous nut spearing), then burst forth in a screeching, clawing fury at Sanitee. This offensive preferably occurring after Chrono is already disposed of, with slightly more effort needed otherwise.

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Post by Mr. Tweedy » Mon Aug 11, 2008 9:48 pm

I think you're overestimating the invulnerability of the Sackoon armor, Tom. Remember, that shell is made to be invulnerable against conventional weapons. His foes are all magical.

Sackoon could take out 1000 Russian tanks no sweat: Their shells would bounce off his armor and he would trample them underfoot like Clovie. In the face of any merely physical attack, he will laugh a drunken laugh, but the round 2 guys are not merely physical.

Chronoceros could foresee just which of his hits would cause the most damage and strike the weakest point every time, and let's not forget the massive momentum behind that need-sharp horn. A hit like that makes a tank shell look like a spit wad.

Night Owl isn't strictly physical. His body is fuzzy, flitting in and out of 4-dimensional space around its margins, able to leave our world entirely for short periods. I see his razor talons as being able to rend matter on an ontological level, passing through steel or paper with equal ease. He manipulates the dimensional scaffold on which matter is built so that the strength of armor is simply inconsequential.

Sackoon could have beaten Squid Marx or Skullverine easily because their physical attacks wouldn't have touched him, but Night Owl... I don't think you're giving that evil critter enough credit. He's evil, man! EVIL!

tbaker2500 wrote:
delfedd wrote:Whoa.... how'd sackoon pull into first!
Well, maybe his immediate family had something to do with it.

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That statue appears numerous times in the game Okami. I wouldn't have recognized what it was if not for this contest. That's quite funny. Mega Beasts are educational.
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Post by auf_weiderzen » Mon Aug 11, 2008 11:22 pm

It seems to come down to not so much to a battle of brains vs. brawn as focus vs. balance. We've seen that a stupid, but burly contender does not a winner make (sorry Skully and Chrono). We have also seen that the "intelligentsia" are fairing no better (Sanitee being the most obvious example, but I'm sure ISM would not hesitate to explain how intelligent and sensitive he is).

Night Owl is evil, meaning that his yin and yang are totally out of whack, and therefore will not be allowed to win by the Universe.

So, not only does Sackoon have the military might and innate cleverness, similar to Squid Marx, but has GIANT STEEL BALLS, meaning that they are much more likely to fight to the bitter end. Additionally, being Shinto and followers of "the Way," their chi is exceptionally aligned. The crystals don't lie.

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Post by tbaker2500 » Tue Aug 12, 2008 1:43 am

Mr. Tweedy wrote:I think you're overestimating the invulnerability of the Sackoon armor, Tom. Remember, that shell is made to be invulnerable against conventional weapons. His foes are all magical.
Well, see, this confuses me them. The website says
"The Mega-Beast Death-Match is a voter driven competition pitting scientifically altered bestial battlers against one another"

That's about as far from Magical as you can get, unless you loop around to "any sufficiently advanced science is indistinguishable form magic."


Yes, Okami is an awesome game. But if you know not of tanuki folklore, do some reading. It's really fun stuff.
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Re: standings

Post by tbaker2500 » Tue Aug 12, 2008 1:48 am

StalinSays wrote:Night Owl has re-opened a healthy lead, up by almost ten on Sackoon, with three times that advantage on Sanitee, who despite his forum discussion presence remains in a distant fourth place (Hornaztee says hi). Chronocerous is in a vote-netting doldrums, hanging in third place from day two onward.
Hey, what's the skinny on how we're allowed to vote? I can think of a number of ways of fooling the count system. But I won't say them online because then I'd be supporting the terrorists!

What I want to know is: let's say I have some influence at work, and people enjoy an occasional break. Can I encourage them to use their computers to vote for a particular candidate?

What about multiple browsers per computer? Even Norm admitted to doing that.
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Post by Mr. Tweedy » Tue Aug 12, 2008 1:58 am

I dunno. I never draw any line between magic and technology or natural and supernatural in my own thinking. Magic is just science you don't understand. I heard some guys talking about String Theory on a recent Scientific American podcast. It sounded awfully mystical to me.

Do you consider telekinesis a magic power?
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response

Post by StalinSays » Tue Aug 12, 2008 2:32 am

Chocolate in the beast peanut-butter?

From a straight up literal read of Night Owl's profile - no mention of magic. That has been the working assumption, but if uniformity is desired, the 'dimensional' aspect of the creature could be explained with high level manipulation of sound through his scream, a power granted by generations of genetic tinkering and the arrival of a single talented uber-owl. More in line with existing assumption, but going the same distance toward explanation, we could just say the shadow bending is a result of arcane knowledge. Leaving in that level of ambiguity where either works makes the recipe just taste better.

---

I'm of the opinion in rock/paper/scissors, owl can't beat tanukies without somehow drawing them out of the mech (at which point he would snatch them up to the sky in his talons, like a some kind of lost kitten {here Bo reveals traumatic childhood}). Whether Night Owl does this by stirring desperation repeatedly reflecting attacks, driving the pilots to madness with a hideous scowl and mind-being screech barrage, or by inventiveness with shadow powers, I can't say. I just don't see the claws getting through the mech's hull by practical means, more them leaving deep scrapes. If we want to say, for the sake of satisfying magic arguments, that there is some tanuki folk spell of protection taped to the armor, I'm down.

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Re: response

Post by tbaker2500 » Tue Aug 12, 2008 2:44 am

StalinSays wrote: I'm of the opinion in rock/paper/scissors, owl can't beat tanukies without somehow drawing them out of the mech (at which point he would snatch them up to the sky in his talons, like a some kind of lost kitten {here Bo reveals traumatic childhood}).
I still love that Funniest Home Videos where a kid has a hamster out on top of the cage out in the backyard. Then a raptor swoops in so fast the kid can't react and takes the hamster. Terribly traumatic to the kid, but a great example of nature adapting to suburbia.


I'm with Bo here, Night Owl needs to use cleverness to damage Sackoon. Which could be quite fun. Getting Sackoon to shoot a tree (by dodging/reflecting) which falls on Sackoon would be good for a few laughs.

But when it comes down to it, as you said, Night Owl is evil. And the bad guy is no fun to have win the competition.
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oh, yeah, voting

Post by StalinSays » Tue Aug 12, 2008 3:11 am

On the subject of voting, and poll hacking


I'm fully aware there are a few different means of cheating the voting system, and could perhaps build a more draconian means of preventive control, but would rather not. I watch the occasional IP if there's a huge jump in voting (and to date, there hasn't been anything too fishy), but yeah, let's just go by a friendly ole' honor system. if you need to follow a special process, or feel like you've somehow garnered an extra vote, you're doing it wrong.

Poll hacking I would personally consider 'within bounds'

1. Voting from multiple browsers on the same PC, if they are installed
2. Voting from multiple computers, home tower, work laptop, etc.
3. Convincing a non-initiate to vote the way you'd wish them to (whether electronically, or over their shoulder)
4. E-mailing links to all friends and family, hoping your aunts can get with the program
5. Dropping a link in the comments section of a Manatee fan site, and relying on their good humor

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Post by tbaker2500 » Tue Aug 12, 2008 3:41 am

Sounds like good rules, Bo. Thanks for the clarification!

I love suggestion #5!
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Post by Mr. Tweedy » Tue Aug 12, 2008 4:31 am

Night Owl cannot possibly drive the Tanuki insane: His evil cries will never penetrate their alcoholic haze. So, by the rules Bo laid down, Night Owl has no chance of beating Sackoon. He is screwed.

If the tanuki can eject the head and/or seal of the pilot compartments, then Sanitee's ability to attack is almost mooted. He is screwed.

And if killing the two pilots merely stops the mech but leaves the guns working, then Chronoceos can never finish him off. (I should have thought of that earlier.) He is screwed.

Sounds like Sackoon is a shoo-in, given this new data. That doesn't seem fair. He seems too powerful. :x
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Post by tbaker2500 » Tue Aug 12, 2008 4:45 am

Mr. Tweedy wrote:Night Owl cannot possibly drive the Tanuki insane: His evil cries will never penetrate their alcoholic haze. So, by the rules Bo laid down, Night Owl has no chance of beating Sackoon. He is screwed.

If the tanuki can eject the head and/or seal of the pilot compartments, then Sanitee's ability to attack is almost mooted. He is screwed.

And if killing the two pilots merely stops the mech but leaves the guns working, then Chronoceos can never finish him off. (I should have thought of that earlier.) He is screwed.

Sounds like Sackoon is a shoo-in, given this new data. That doesn't seem fair. He seems too powerful. :x
I would argue that Sackoon's greatest weakness is that he's piloted by 3 possibly drunken, childish, fun-loving creatures who do not necessarily agree with each other.

All the power in the world doesn't help if both the left and right legs take a step forward at the same time. :-)
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Post by Mr. Tweedy » Tue Aug 12, 2008 5:32 am

That's it, Tom! You've hit on it. Sanitee can win. All he has to do is give some subtle hypnotic encouragement to the tanuki to drink just... one... more... It wouldn't be mind control, really, because the tanuki are drinking anyway. He's just giving that little butterfly push to get the debauchery going.

Sanitee sits back, well away from the action, deflecting any stray projectiles with his telekinesis. After Sackoon takes care of Night Owl and Chronoceros, Sanitee projects the subtle message: You guys fought hard. Don't you deserve a little victory drink? The ball starts rolling...

An hour later Sanitee drifts lazily over and, one by one, the tanuki die that deaths of so many rock stars before them.

So Sackoon isn't invincible. I feel better now. :)
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shambles

Post by StalinSays » Tue Aug 12, 2008 5:38 pm

Yep, truly there are a million and one ways for any competitor to win, you guys just seem to zoom in on the raddest ones: a drunken, shambling Tanuki mess would be highly ineffective in ultimate combat. The three pilot/gunners must work in together in syncopated motion like a (pun intended) sack race - a task that's hard to accomplish sober. If Sanitee floated them an excuse to go for glassy-eyed glory (appearing like a classic cartoon devil on their left shoulder), that cohesion would be gone in minutes. The mech might just as well trip over itself, and the head just roll off (with a Night Owl screeching down after the stumbling beasties inside).

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Post by Mr. Tweedy » Tue Aug 12, 2008 5:55 pm

How could Night Owl win against Sackoon? Even if the tanuki all fall asleep, we've established that Night Owl can't penetrate the armor.

And I still can't think of a story where Chronoceros wins (barring tea parties, of course).
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here we go

Post by StalinSays » Tue Aug 12, 2008 6:20 pm

Couple quickies:

(1) Night Owl vs. Sackoon - Night Owl, near to a tree near the center of the field, creates a shadow duplicate of himself lying in a prone position, then darts over to the shade, allowing him to sustain it for a prolonged period. Sackoon, having felled the other competitors, walks over to the 'body' and lays out a quick bullet spray. Surprised to see nothing has changed, the pilots and gunner hold council, perhaps peppered by competitive drinking games. One eventually wanders outside to investigate the body, only to be ambushed by an unholy terror. Night Owl then quickly rushes the opening left by the exited scout, and goes Aliens on the narrow corridors of the inner mech.

(2) Chronocerous vs. Sackoon - As mentioned at the dawn of the competition, Chrono bullet dances about, dodging Sackoon's barrage to kick off their encounter. He gathers information on each possible means of attack (a la Bill Murray's bank robbery in Groundhog's Day), finds the weakest point available, and then exploits it with cold efficiency.

(3) Chronocerous vs. Sanitee - Tougher fight here. Chrono needs just a bit of luck to avoid the Sanitee stare long enough to realize its horrifying implications. Once that threshold is crossed, his charging speed will do the rest. Sanitee is highly dangerous, but plodding: he could be circled, and brought low with a leaping spear to the back.

(4) Chonocerous vs. Night Owl - Another tough fight. Chrono forfeits the risk of air attacks, and will have to endure some deep, criss-crossing gashes to his hide. But more than luck is on his side now: he could use his foresight to stomp down on Night Owl's wing, the exact instant it makes a diving swoop, grounding it and paralyzing its chances. One stomp after that, and the round's most petite competitor becomes its first eliminated.

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