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Re: Drabblecast 190 The Wheel

Posted: Fri Dec 10, 2010 11:54 pm
by strawman
Etaan wrote: I don't have any issue with religion until people allow it to take the place of independent thought.
This statement strikes me as increasingly bizarre the more I think about it.

Maybe a religion that was merely a cultural memory of familiar comforting words and rituals would not conflict with independent thought. But such a religion would be obviously man-made and contain nothing of faith, since that would interfere with independent thought. Supernatural? Nope, can't have that.

Consider the story of Eden and the loss of paradise: isn't it essentially Man's assertion of independent thought over dependent thought (obedience).

Bottom line, Etaan: If it's religion, then you have a fundamental issue with it.
My question, from the days of Eden until now: "Independent thought" is just words. When you consider it, doesn't it produce as much self-deception and illusion as wisdom, wrong as well as right? Why do we put so much faith in it?

Because we are sons and daughters of Adam, maybe?

Re: Drabblecast 190 The Wheel

Posted: Sat Dec 11, 2010 12:15 am
by moonowl
I liked it, but I just feel I have heard this story many times, in a different wrapper. Not that that is always a bad thing but it didn't hit it out of the park for me.

Goat God Catechism ont he other hand was AWESOME and the perfect pair to a story that was in part poking at religious indoctrination.

I just have one question. Does anyone have a hard time following Mr Dickson's (the Answering Character) readings or is it my audio device? I put my ipod on SLOW DOWN speed and cranked the volume up.

Re: Drabblecast 190 The Wheel

Posted: Sat Dec 11, 2010 9:53 am
by Polecat
strawman wrote: My question, from the days of Eden until now: "Independent thought" is just words. When you consider it, doesn't it produce as much self-deception and illusion as wisdom, wrong as well as right? Why do we put so much faith in it?

Because we are sons and daughters of Adam, maybe?
Indeed we are, Man of straw, indeed we are:

http://www.futilitycloset.com/2010/12/10/pssst/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Respectfully,

The Polecat

Re: Drabblecast 190 The Wheel

Posted: Mon Dec 13, 2010 3:13 am
by Mikes
strawman wrote:Because we are sons and daughters of Adam, maybe?
I'm not. My dad's name is Malcolm.

Anyway, to me the story wasn't as much about repressive religion as unnecessary fear. The society in the story obviously only just came back from the brink of extinction and to avoid such an occurrence happening again they laid the blame on something other than the root; that of the basic nature of humanity.

The blame was laid on the wheel, which is basically the centre of all technology, ignoring all the good such advances can bring. In the process ignoring the destructive nature of man, which is still carrying on as can be seen by the burning.

Re: Drabblecast 190 The Wheel

Posted: Mon Dec 13, 2010 6:49 pm
by Unblinking
strawman wrote: Consider the story of Eden and the loss of paradise: isn't it essentially Man's assertion of independent thought over dependent thought (obedience).
The Adam and Eve story really bothers me because, to my eyes, they make anyone who believe in the contents of the story to be a total hypocrite. To me the story seems to teach that knowledge is evil, thus we should choose ignorance. But by learning this lesson and listening to this story, you have increased your knowledge and decreased your ignorance and so by learning the lesson you are directly going against it. And the writers of the Bible were sinning by learning a language, and every translator of the Bible was sinning by converting it to new languages, and I'm sinning by reading the language again, and by discussing the lessons. It's a lesson that violates itself by being learned.

If we are to condemn the desire for knowledge, then shouldn't we shun all forms of learning? I don't understand how one can teach Adam and Eve as a lesson, and then go home and take their blood pressure medication, or have a relative receiving cancer treatment, or drive their car to church. All of these things and millions of others depended on research to make them available. But what is the alternative? Even if I shun technology my mind will still strive to learn, and as long as I can observe and process, then I will always learn something. I suppose I could hit my head with a hammer until my desire for knowledge goes away, but somehow that doesn't seem like the right path for me.

Re: Drabblecast 190 The Wheel

Posted: Mon Dec 13, 2010 7:16 pm
by strawman
The parable does call the fruit from the tree of knowledge. But the actual point is not really about knowledge per se, but the power to choose for ourselves whether things are good or evil (~instead of taking God's word for it). Thus, the serpent's temptation was for Eve to "be like God". The first bite of the fruit was the decision to decide that we ought to be able to come to our own conclusions.

Once you decide for yourself, you become "responsible" for the consequences of your choice. Therefore the "loss of innocence" meme.

Re: Drabblecast 190 The Wheel

Posted: Mon Dec 13, 2010 7:29 pm
by Unblinking
strawman wrote:The parable does call the fruit from the tree of knowledge. But the actual point is not really about knowledge per se, but the power to choose for ourselves whether things are good or evil (~instead of taking God's word for it). Thus, the serpent's temptation was for Eve to "be like God". The first bite of the fruit was the decision to decide that we ought to be able to come to our own conclusions.

Once you decide for yourself, you become "responsible" for the consequences of your choice. Therefore the "loss of innocence" meme.
I think it's debatable what the actual point is with any myth, as the original writer or even the original generation of the writer are long dead. I think you're right that the "beating yourself in the head with a hammer" approach is generally not the lesson one hears from the pulpet, or in Sunday School (unless you have a really weird church), and I never thought of that aspect when I was very young. But as an adult, and even as young as my early teens, I found it hard not to see the conclusion that, according to this myth, knowledge is evil, therefore we should choose ignorance.

This and original sin have been major sticking points for me in Christianity for a very long time.

Re: Drabblecast 190 The Wheel

Posted: Mon Dec 13, 2010 8:37 pm
by strawman
Unblinking wrote:I think it's debatable what the actual point is with any myth, as the original writer or even the original generation of the writer are long dead.
The original was recited orally for one or two millenia before ever being written down, and was similar to other origin myths in Egypt and Mesopotamia. Recommended: Joseph Campbell's Power of Myth. It was understood in the same way by Milton in Paradise Lost. So the point is pretty well generally agreed upon.

But I suggest a rereading of the Genesis Garden myth, as it speaks pretty clearly for itself. Adam has authority to name all the beasts, the ultimate in biblical "knowledge". Knowledge is endorsed. The 'knowledge' of good and evil is the only explanation that makes sense.

I think The Wheel takes the other path into an absurd world of superstition that would exist if technological knowledge were always judged according to its negative consequences. And it makes sense that such taboos would take the form of religious superstitions, which are rightly associated with other forms of ignorance.

Re: Drabblecast 190 The Wheel

Posted: Tue Dec 14, 2010 3:55 pm
by Unblinking
strawman wrote:So the point is pretty well generally agreed upon.
Not by me. As far as I'm concerned the message I am told is in the Adam & Eve story does not entirely match up with the story itself. It sounds like you know more about mythological studies than I do, so I won't argue with you there. I am only interpreting it for myself at face value and that is the conclusion I see, for better or worse.

Re: Drabblecast 190 The Wheel

Posted: Wed Dec 15, 2010 1:00 pm
by themorg
cave morg like story a lot
going to figure what wheel is
make and take and even bake one maybe

Re: Drabblecast 190 The Wheel

Posted: Wed Dec 15, 2010 10:07 pm
by Etaan
strawman wrote:
Etaan wrote: I don't have any issue with religion until people allow it to take the place of independent thought.
This statement strikes me as increasingly bizarre the more I think about it.

Maybe a religion that was merely a cultural memory of familiar comforting words and rituals would not conflict with independent thought. But such a religion would be obviously man-made and contain nothing of faith, since that would interfere with independent thought. Supernatural? Nope, can't have that.
If I didn't like things that interfered with purely independent thought, I would have to lock myself in a white room. Everything we read and listen to is in a constant tug of war to nudge our understanding of the world to match that author's (in the broadest sense of the term). Many people find the worldview of some particular religion mirrors their own and look to that faith to be a major influence in their day to day lives. It's no surprise that most people follow the same religion as the people who have had the most impact on their lives.

What I take issue with is when people stop using a religion as a guiding influence and cede all decision making responsibilities to the institution. Regardless of the religion or how mainstream it may be, when its followers start mindlessly repeating dogma and claiming that they are expressing their personal opinion, it has become a cult to them. A mother who drives her own son into a shed for being corrupted by the Devil is either brainwashed or brain damaged.

Re: Drabblecast 190 The Wheel

Posted: Wed Dec 15, 2010 11:10 pm
by strawman
agreed

Re: Drabblecast 190 The Wheel

Posted: Fri Dec 17, 2010 5:58 am
by moonowl
Etaan wrote: A mother who drives her own son into a shed for being corrupted by the Devil is either brainwashed or brain damaged.
Or scared. Religion often runs on fears.

Re: Drabblecast 190 The Wheel

Posted: Fri Dec 17, 2010 6:06 am
by Mikes
moonowl wrote:
Etaan wrote: A mother who drives her own son into a shed for being corrupted by the Devil is either brainwashed or brain damaged.
Or scared. Religion often runs on fears.
Which is really just a symptom of the brain washing/indoctrination of religion* overriding the natural mother's drive to protect and nurture.



*Purely given an example for the sake of this discussion and has no bearing on my opinion towards religion.

Re: Drabblecast 190 The Wheel

Posted: Wed Dec 29, 2010 6:19 pm
by shagin
"The Wheel" was fantastic. I'm not familiar with Mr. Wyndham's work, but that's about to change. I really appreciate Norm's efforts to explore older works as well, seeking pieces that highlight different styles and talents that are also great DC fits. I expected the grandfather to help the boy escape, a too easy out for the story, and was pleased when that did not come to pass. This is a "post apocalyptic" story before the label became an annoying attempt to pigeonhole every story in support of genre marketing.

I didn't have a good sense of the cover art until I saw it in better lighting, and then I was blown away by the use of color and shading.

Go go Goat God!


Sandra M. Odell

Re: Drabblecast 190 The Wheel

Posted: Wed Dec 29, 2010 6:23 pm
by Unblinking
I got Wyndham's "Day of the Triffids" for Christmas. Looking forward to reading it, as I've heard people talking about it all the time in the last year.

Re: Drabblecast 190 - The Wheel

Posted: Tue Jan 04, 2011 7:20 pm
by Franklin
I haven't gotten to read through the other comments here, but I think I share the sentiment of many folks here when I say I absolutely loved it. I don't usually listen to stories twice, but I did for this one.

"No discovery is good or evil until men make it so" -  this is an idea in so much of science fiction and it still resonates in today's society. Religion is just a conduit for fear and evil.  It's internal logic allows, but it is the human mind that prefers this mode of thought.

This sort of thinking doesn't have to involve a god - just look at all the people who are afraid of the future.  The far left dirt worshippers and far right ultraconservative can both agree that change (call it “progress” if you like) is to be feared.

Nietzsche says: “What an age experiences as evil is usually an untimely reverberation echoing what was previously experienced as good—the atavism of an older ideal.”

Re: Drabblecast 190 - The Wheel

Posted: Tue Jan 04, 2011 8:53 pm
by strawman
Wasn't Nietzsche like the philosopher-laureat of the Third Reich?

Re: Drabblecast 190 - The Wheel

Posted: Tue Jan 04, 2011 10:34 pm
by Franklin
strawman wrote:Wasn't Nietzsche like the philosopher-laureat of the Third Reich?
I thought that was Darwin.

Re: Drabblecast 190 - The Wheel

Posted: Wed Jan 05, 2011 3:59 pm
by Etaan
Franklin wrote:
strawman wrote:Wasn't Nietzsche like the philosopher-laureat of the Third Reich?
I thought that was Darwin.
More like Thomas Malthus. Social Darwinism has little to do with Real Darwinism.