More than 1,000 dead birds fall from sky in Ark.

Would have beena great fiction story...if it was fiction
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Mr. Tweedy
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Re: More than 1,000 dead birds fall from sky in Ark.

Post by Mr. Tweedy » Tue Jan 18, 2011 3:22 pm

You slander me, sir. I did not change the subject. This is what I'm talking about. The example is perfectly applicable, not "loosely related."

Is the mother wrong? Well yes, of course she is. She is on the side of evil, the side of hate and lies. But she is acting with sincere conviction: She believes she is doing right, and her action is selfless. She could even be regarded as making a noble sacrifice.

The Matrix offers a fine example (as it generally does). Contrast Cypher with the police Neo blows away in the lobby scene. Is Neo justified in killing the police? Sure he is: They're on the side of the Machines. They are fighting to keep humanity in a state of degradation and slavery, and they are fighting to kill Morpheus, who is innocent and good. But they don't know that; they believe they're fighting for order and justice. They don't know they live in the Matrix. They are slaves. Are they bad guys? Yes. Is Neo right to destroy them? Yes. Are they contemptible? No. Their being on the wrong side is due to their ignorance and to simple bad luck. You feel bad for them, and you wish the circumstance were different so that their destruction was not necessary. It's too bad there wasn't any chance to explain the situation to them.

Cypher, on the other hand, has been outside the Matrix. He knows the truth, and he colludes with the Machines voluntarily, out of greed, because he wants a payoff.

You see the moral distinction? You see that there are two different categories of bad? Or is the person who is enslaved by ignorance just as contemptible as the person who understands what is right and acts from greed or malice?

With power comes responsibility. Knowledge is power, no?
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Re: More than 1,000 dead birds fall from sky in Ark.

Post by strawman » Tue Jan 18, 2011 4:50 pm

Jer-ry!

Jer-ry!

Jer-ry!
Never judge anyone until you have biopsied their brain.

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Re: More than 1,000 dead birds fall from sky in Ark.

Post by Algernon Sydney is Dead » Tue Jan 18, 2011 7:18 pm

Mr. Tweedy wrote:You slander me, sir. I did not change the subject. This is what I'm talking about. The example is perfectly applicable, not "loosely related."
I disagree, on all points. And if I did slight you, it would have been libel, not slander. But I don't think I did. Apologies, anyway. I'll go back to minimizing "you" references in my posts (although it may be unavoidable in this one).
Is the mother wrong? Well yes, of course she is. She is on the side of evil, the side of hate and lies. But she is acting with sincere conviction: She believes she is doing right, and her action is selfless. She could even be regarded as making a noble sacrifice.
No, you say she is on the side of hate and lies, but does the story really allow that? That's why we need a transcript.
You're judging her (1) on what you know and assume and (2) what she "believes" (as if that could ever be established without psychic powers).
Both of these judgments are wrong. We've already established that judging on belief is immoral and impossible for all but a god.
Likewise, it is wrong to judge someone who makes the best action based on the information they have, even if later facts/knowledge show that action to be a mistake.
The questions are only: "What did she *do*? What did she know? What *should* she have been obligated/expected to know?"
The Matrix offers a fine example (as it generally does).
I'm not going to follow into another hypothetical/tangent. Stick to the topic(s) or drop it, please.
You see the moral distinction? You see that there are two different categories of bad? Or is the person who is enslaved by ignorance just as contemptible as the person who understands what is right and ==> acts <== from greed or malice?
Now, that's a mix of a statement!
(1) No one can be "enslaved by ignorance" by anyone but themselves. That does not mean that others can't keep crucial knowledge from you.

(2) We've already explored how wrongs committed by honest mistake, just mean that there are 2 victims, instead of 1.
BUT, certain kinds of ignorance are no excuse.

(3) The second person is obviously more contemptible, because he has committed at least 2 foul acts: (a) whatever crime, and (b) hypocrisy and (c) probably: cover-up/perjury/fraud.
But note that you've mutated your argument away from the opening conjectures in earlier posts. And it does not change the fact that no matter what the second guy believes, it is only what he does that effects others, or that counts against him in the mortal realm.

With power comes responsibility. Knowledge is power, no?
No this is a statist/altruist fallacy, and also another topic. At best it is true in particulars but not in kind.

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Re: More than 1,000 dead birds fall from sky in Ark.

Post by Mr. Tweedy » Tue Jan 18, 2011 7:51 pm

You confuse me. You are most vehement in your assertion that I am very, very wrong. And yet, reading your post, I can find little in the way of actual disagreement.
Algernon Sydney is Dead wrote: Likewise, it is wrong to judge someone who makes the best action based on the information they have, even if later facts/knowledge show that action to be a mistake.
Uh, right. That's what I said.
Algernon Sydney is Dead wrote: The questions are only: "What did she *do*? What did she know? What *should* she have been obligated/expected to know?"
Right...
Algernon Sydney is Dead wrote: (1) No one can be "enslaved by ignorance" by anyone but themselves. That does not mean that others can't keep crucial knowledge from you.
Right, like withholding crucial knowledge that causes you to make a bad choice. Same page.
Algernon Sydney is Dead wrote: (2) We've already explored how wrongs committed by honest mistake, just mean that there are 2 victims, instead of 1.
Right. The perpetrator is also a victim. Hence more deserving of sympathy than one who is a perpetrator exclusively.
Algernon Sydney is Dead wrote:The second person is obviously more contemptible
Yeah. Right. That's what I keep saying, and you keep telling me I'm wrong.


Finer points aside, you seem to agree with me on the meat of this. You're saying the same thing I'm saying, while simultaneously saying I'm totally wrong. I is confused. If you want me to keep contenting with you, you'll have to explain to me what we're arguing about, because I'm afraid I don't know.
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Re: More than 1,000 dead birds fall from sky in Ark.

Post by strawman » Tue Jan 18, 2011 8:15 pm

ROU Killing Time wrote:I'm with Algernon on this one. We revile slavers (historical and modern-day) because they are collosal douche-bags.
So Washington and Jefferson were reviled douche-bags? No, they're just not part of the slaver stereotype that people have been taught to revile.

To read this thread, you'd conclude that a lot of people here have the ability to intuit other peoples' thinking and motives, with uncanny accuracy and certitude. They were especially revilable because they were hypocrites who knew they were wrong.

I doubt that.
Never judge anyone until you have biopsied their brain.

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Re: More than 1,000 dead birds fall from sky in Ark.

Post by Algernon Sydney is Dead » Tue Jan 18, 2011 8:17 pm

Mr. Tweedy wrote:You confuse me. You are most vehement in your assertion that I am very, very wrong. And yet, reading your post, I can find little in the way of actual disagreement.
Well, if we agree on all points, then we are both wrong... Uh, wait... :?

Seriously, we can drop this now? I apologize for not seeing that we were saying the same thing.

I propose we both stagger to the nearest bar and hoist a whiskey in the other guy's honor. Cheers!

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Re: More than 1,000 dead birds fall from sky in Ark.

Post by Algernon Sydney is Dead » Tue Jan 18, 2011 8:26 pm

strawman wrote:
ROU Killing Time wrote:I'm with Algernon on this one. We revile slavers (historical and modern-day) because they are collosal douche-bags.
So Washington and Jefferson were reviled douche-bags? No, they're just not part of the slaver stereotype that people have been taught to revile.

To read this thread, you'd conclude that a lot of people here have the ability to intuit other peoples' thinking and motives, with uncanny accuracy and certitude. They were especially revilable because they were hypocrites who knew they were wrong.
Ah, but Washington and Jefferson *admitted* that slavery was wrong with their words and deeds.

Jefferson, tried to get slavery banned from the forming country and was slapped down so hard that he caved quickly. He still wanted to ship all Negros back to their "native" country.

Washington famously freed his slaves upon his death. But maybe that was just to deprive his wife of their services? :twisted:

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Re: More than 1,000 dead birds fall from sky in Ark.

Post by Mr. Tweedy » Tue Jan 18, 2011 9:58 pm

You must buy.
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Re: More than 1,000 dead birds fall from sky in Ark.

Post by tbaker2500 » Tue Jan 18, 2011 11:17 pm

I'm a Democrat.
You're my quasi-ichthian angel, you're my half-amphibian queen...

The Dribblecast, we don't care if you sound like an idiot.

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Re: More than 1,000 dead birds fall from sky in Ark.

Post by strawman » Tue Jan 18, 2011 11:30 pm

Democrats were the party of the slavers. You knew you were wrong, Tom. Admit!
Never judge anyone until you have biopsied their brain.

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Re: More than 1,000 dead birds fall from sky in Ark.

Post by Algernon Sydney is Dead » Tue Jan 18, 2011 11:39 pm

I get it, you guys are trying to trick me; waving the raw meat in front of my fangs.

Must... Resist... Posting...

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Re: More than 1,000 dead birds fall from sky in Ark.

Post by Mr. Tweedy » Tue Jan 18, 2011 11:56 pm

Your being a Democrat is the reason animals are dying.
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Re: More than 1,000 dead birds fall from sky in Ark.

Post by ROU Killing Time » Wed Jan 19, 2011 1:38 am

strawman wrote:
ROU Killing Time wrote:At least I know how to spell "Colossal" now...
In any event, fascinating discourse/debate.
Staying on topic is for the birds... (all thousand of 'em.)
Since they fell in Arkansas, isn't an investigation into possible Clinton involvement in order, though?
Otherwise known as a Foster Extinction Event.
Hmmm. Only one way to tell: Were their offices scrubbed before the authorities were notified?
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Re: More than 1,000 dead birds fall from sky in Ark.

Post by themorg » Wed Jan 19, 2011 5:20 am

Algernon Sydney is Dead wrote:Dodging the arguments and changing the subject to a loosely related hypothetical. Classic, and I fell for it. But that also means that my earlier reasoning won out, since you've sidestepped it. :)


oh no someone will go through the archives and bring it up years later like i did with a topic from the 3rd podcast last year so you will have to argue the point sometime in the future.
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Re: More than 1,000 dead birds fall from sky in Ark.

Post by LizPennies » Thu Jan 20, 2011 5:13 pm

WHOA!!!

Wasn't there once a forum for religious, political, and similar, debates on here before. You know... A separate thread? What ever happened to that. Oh, right, it was shut down. ......hrmmm. I wonder why. :P

Sorry boyos. I'm pulling a "mommy" moment here and saying "Play nice." Remember why you are all here. You are all writers with a penchant for the strange and intriguing. That is your common ground. We are allowed to have differences in opinion, religious views, and political standings. If we didn't, how BORING sharing our writing with each other would be? Let's just drop it, eh? None of you are right. None of you are wrong.

...Now who wants some Rice Krispie squares? *Bats eyes and gives a Stepford smile.*
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Re: More than 1,000 dead birds fall from sky in Ark.

Post by themorg » Thu Jan 20, 2011 7:08 pm

LizPennies wrote:WHOA!!!

Wasn't there once a forum for religious, political, and similar, debates on here before. You know... A separate thread? What ever happened to that. Oh, right, it was shut down. ......hrmmm. I wonder why. :P
I guess i should have read closer to some of what was posted because all i saw was FSM was hungry and everyone agreed on that.
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Re: More than 1,000 dead birds fall from sky in Ark.

Post by Mr. Tweedy » Fri Jan 21, 2011 12:44 am

Actually, I think we agreed that everyone was right. And we figured out why animals are dying.

At least that's what I think happened, because Algy bought us all beer, and so my memory is a bit fuzzy.

Here, have some Algy beer. It's good... I think.
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Re: More than 1,000 dead birds fall from sky in Ark.

Post by Algernon Sydney is Dead » Fri Jan 21, 2011 12:55 am

Don't know about good, but it is recycled. :wink:

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Re: More than 1,000 dead birds fall from sky in Ark.

Post by Mr. Tweedy » Fri Jan 21, 2011 1:14 am

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Re: More than 1,000 dead birds fall from sky in Ark.

Post by ROU Killing Time » Fri Jan 21, 2011 2:07 am

There was beer?

Damn.
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